Sim setup for a flight school environment

[RonCraighead]

Hello all!

I'm exploring the idea of installing a few sims in a flight schools' ready room. A friend of mine owns it.

I'm FAIRLY new to this generation of sims... So I'm installing X-Plane and FSX on my Windows side, and will install X-Plane on my Linux side, and try them out.

I obviously have some decisions to make, and a finite ammount of time to evaluate all options and make a decision.

I would very much appreciate any input you might have on platform, OS, etc for this application.

I envision an appliance type situation... Something purpose built as a sim. Goals\vision include:

Reasonable cost: Preferably under $1000, while providing the most value. Features can be added later if the program does well.

PilotEdge of course.

I'm leaning toward X-Plane 10 and Linux. I like the instructor console and the ability to eventually certify the sim with the FAA. The custom scenery in for the PE area is great too...

Linux is cheap and can be locked down to a stable image. A good appliance OS.

Again, I welcome any suggestions you have.

Regards,

Ron

[par2005]

I would vote for either P3D or X-Plane, but not FSX (P3D user here)

FSX is not being developed anymore, so I can't see it being a valid choice anymore. P3D really looks best currently from all the platforms due to being optimized for modern graphics cards, and the framerates are better than fsx. However X-Plane has linux support as well as a bigger community on PE (I wonder how much bigger?).

People often mention x-plane "flight dynamics" but this only might apply to stock aircraft. Noone flies default aircraft anyway, and p3d/fsx dynamics with addon airplanes are easily on par if not better. I would argue that fsx/p3d has better addon aircraft overall.

Other than that, it's a religion question, rather than anything else. People using x-plane will advise for x-plane, p3d/fsx users otherwise. Truth is both will work.

I do have doubts about your budget (I live in Europe, it's expensive here!). I suppose if you can get some used computers, it's doable, but don't expect too much. Simulators are resource-hungry.

[wmburns]

Everything is IMO.....

Some of your goals seem to be at odds against the others. For example the FSX vs X-Plane choice. Support costs go way up when trying to support vastly different architectures such as FSX verses X-Plane. Especially when multiple units are involved. I think you should pick one and see if it can meet all of your needs.

Again since this will be part of a business process, long term support should be high on the list. For this reason, FSX should be ruled out. Then it becomes a choice between X-Plane and P3D.

Since cost is an issue, the Linux does offer some cost savings. However supporting a Linux system is not for the novice. Sure once everything is set up, Linux can give stable performance. But IMO you really should start with a single PC and see how it works for you. I have done some decent testing with Unbuntu Linux, X-Plane, and PE. For the tests that I ran, it was very stable. However, EXPECT difficulties should something unforeseen come up.

I still have some sample Linux systems set up that I might be able to use to get the testing ball moving quicker. PM.

Note, as far as I'm aware the Linux PE client will still CTD/loop if the call sign is above a certain length.

Consider if this software is going into a business flight school that some additional considerations should be given to license. FSX is not licensed for business use. X-Plane can be as well P3D.

IMO you should also better define what other devices are going to be attached to the sim. Yoke, rudder pedals, throttle, radio? All of these things are easily added in a Windows setup but can be a night mare under Linux. It all depends on just how good your understanding of Linux is. I was able to get the full set of Saitek gear to work but honestly it took some effort.

Note, I did get slightly better frame rates under Linux.

Note, if considering going the Linux route recommend using only Nvidia graphics cards.

I have to say that your budget for multiple sim set up is likely light. Especially if looking for high end set ups. What do you expect to be included? PC, Monitor, sim, rudder pedals, yoke and so on? For a business set up, don't cut corners with things like monitor size.

Also with this going into a real flight school, extra importance should be placed on the accuracy of the flight model. This is an area where X-Plane is strong.

I hope this helps.

[RonCraighead]

Thanks a ton for your replies so far!

I was a little vague... Wanting this to be open ended to get everyones oppinion.

I do want to pick one platform, and stick with it. I want the systems to be duplicatable and supportable. This means readiliy available hardware. It seems like a happy medium hardware cost is about $500.

My system can be had on the used corporate market for, believe it or not, $150... It's a 4 year old dell. I added a new Nvidia card to it, and it runs great. If I can build four or five of them for $250 each in hardware, all the better. I don't expect amazing graphics... Or even necessarily super accurate flight models.

For example, the A2A Cherokee is AMAZING. But it climbs like I shoved a JATO rocket up its tail! Most of my time is in Cherokees, and it has its departures from reality. Such is life.

Licensing would be an issue... I'm leaning toward x-plane, because it would be great if students got their own for home use, that was the same as the ones the Instructor uses. That means that Windows is probably the platform of choice...

Saitek hardware would be nice in the FBO as a training aid. I think the radios on the screen would be fine... Virtually turning a knob is no big deal. But the yoke and rudder pedals, and throttle ($300 together) would be ideal. I'm up to $800 in hardware.

Yup, $1000 is probably too optimistic. Maybe $1750, If I don't have a PC already, and buy the commercial key for x-plane. Plus a couple monitors... 2250... Wow, it adds up fast!

Thanks again for the input. Keep the ideas\concerns coming if you have any more thoughts.

Ron

[Nelson L.]

Quick suggestion on the hardware - the Saitek yokes are notorious for deadzones and center detents. As expected, this isn't exactly ideal for anyone trying to simulate the motions they would make in a real world aircraft (seeing as some people have 15 degrees of deadzone...). If you don't mind mixing manufacturers, a CH yoke + Saitek pedals and Quads would, IMO, offer a better investment. Just keep in mind that people either love or hate Saitek, no in between - I'd imagine its especially important for commercial users to have reliability and longevity in their investments. And on the topic of sims, I do recommend XP as well, in lieu of P3D, simply because of licensing, addons, aircraft (and their pricing), the community, and me being "XP Biased". More high-end devs are transitioning to XP (notably PMDG) and while I can't testify from experience, XP supposedly has vastly superior flight dynamics compared to sims based of off ESP. As others have already mentioned, FSX shouldn't even be a contender. On the topic of monitors, keep in mind that XP can't accurately simulate multiple monitors as of now using a single copy of XP - you have a single view stretched out across the number of monitors present. This makes it impossible, for example, to look to a monitor off your left and see out the window. To get that effect, you would need multiple computers to power each display, and a copy of XP for each individual computer - not even remotely cheap. An alternative is to have multiple instances of XP running on a single computer to power each display, although that requires a lot of setup and a beefy computer (getting into a thousand or more on just the CPU+GPU alone). The reason I bring this up is that if I understand you correctly, you intend to get a few cheap PCs to power your setup - in which case you'll be running with minimum graphics settings and with "barely adequate" fps (below 19 is a no-go in XP). You would have to invest a lot more in hardware to get that setup to work properly. I would even go so far as to suggest XP9 if that hardware were the only option - simply because the sim will be utilized for commercial purposes and XP10 may not be runnable. I would recommend at least 700 series Nvidia GPUs (or AMD equivalents - I don't do AMD) for each machine, plus something cheap but fast in single thread performance like a Intel Pentium G3258. If those investments aren't options, I would personally recommend taking the hit and going single computer with the yoke+pedals+quads setup, which can serve the purposes of simulation quite well (looking around with 5 monitors is imo a luxury). All of that being said, the amount you want to invest is totally up to you, and obviously get more people's advice before investing - I would recommend making a post on the XP forums for more exposure. Will link the XP Forum post about the multiple instances in an edit.

PS - OS? Windows - why? Less Hassle. Opinions divided, that's my view. Take it, along with everything else in this post, with a grain of salt. Its not my money after all


Edit - http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?sho ... 2Bcomputer

Looking back on your post, if you intend to get multiple computers for multiple copies of XP on different computers for different instances (ie not all monitors connected to 1 sim), then you have an inkling of a chance of keeping your PC budget, although I would still recommend putting a little more money into hardware for safety's sake.

[wmburns]

My system can be had on the used corporate market for, believe it or not, $150... It's a 4 year old dell. I added a new Nvidia card to it, and it runs great. If I can build four or five of them for $250 each in hardware, all the better. I don't expect amazing graphics... Or even necessarily super accurate flight models.

+1 to above. Rather than using an old business PC, consider using a NEWer Haswell based PC. But here's the catch. Don't go with a high end CPU. Instead use a budget Haswell Mother Board that can be had for less then $70 and combine with a dual core Pentium CPU that can be had for less than $70 as well. This will give you a modern PC on a budget with performance that will exceed what a 4 year old Dell can provide.

It would also be smart to understand which OS the older Dell came with. If Windows 7 then some of the residual value of the PC will be in the OS. If Vista or older then this doesn't matter if the plan is to run Linux.

Another thing to consider is the very few purchased business PC's have large enough power supplies to run high end graphics cards. And many business PC's are difficult to upgrade. Some Dells have non-standard power supplies that make them almost impossible to upgrade. This is more likely a problem with the older Dells or the small form factor units.

On the subject of Video cards, my advice is to consider the video card carefully. Consider that a Urber high end video card needs a high end power supply. If building on a budget, making the wrong choice will have a cascade effect. For example the GTX750 series of Nvidia graphics card. This is a less than $120 card that in my system gives 45-70 FPS. It has very modest power requirements.

On the other hand, too little graphics horse power will ham string the system giving terrible frame rate. IMO once the rate drops below 20 FPS, it will go down hill quickly.

The key here is to build a matched system that stays within your budget. Avoid spending too much on any one component. Especially if not re-usable. That means no SSD. Don't over buy memory, cases, or power supplies in an attempt to make the system "future proof".

However in my opinion you will be much better off REPEATING the setup with newer PC components. Could you also explain why the goal is to have multiple sim setups. It seems to me that a single good set up would be better than multiple lesser quality setups.

So that you can compare my system specs:
Mother Board: ASUS Z87 Haswell
CPU: Haswell i5
8Gigs of RAM (again the cheapest available)
NO OVER Clocking. So no need for an upgraded CPU cooler.
450 Watt power supply (cheap!)
Graphis: ASUS GTX750 (I paid less than $150 more than a year ago. They are even cheaper now)
Saitek rudder pedals, Saitek yoke, dual Saitek throttle quad, Saitek radio statck.
Analog head phones with analog mic.
Over all X-Plane performance 45-70 FPS.

I have been able to get all of the gear to work together under an Unbuntu Linux 64 bit on PilotEdge. I have logged hours of stable flight.

The point about X-Plane's poor use of multiple monitors is a valid point. That is why if I were building this system I would get the largest and best monitor I could afford.

Now onto a completely different direction. If I were the owner/operator of a real flight school with real airplanes, I would at least look at the available touch screen systems on the market. Image the benefit of a touch screen system that almost exactly matched the planes the students were flying. The time to consider this is before too much money was spent to make changing directions overly difficult. IE, BEFORE it's time to create multiple systems (the multiplier effect!). Should touch be a possibility Linux is out.

http://www.flythissim.com/touchtrainer.php
http://www.flythissim.com/newsite/products/sim-avio/ (Simavo for more of a DIY'er solution).

To recap. Building a budget PC based on newer'ish hardware/CPU using budget Mother Board with a minimum investment in MB, CPU, PS, memory, video card, case would give you a good test bed to begin testing with. But expectation management is vital. Don't expect to look out the window and see the amazing graphics some people show case on Youtube videos. To me, if the cockpit dash is readable and the airport signage is readable and reasonable then much beyond that is just gravy.

The only change I might suggest is to attempt to use the older Dell only if you currently OWN this device. Here's were Linux will give you a HUGE advantage. Linux is not married to the PC hardware like Windows is. There's a high likely hood that you could take the Linux OS HD out from the Dell and transplant into a newer PC and Linux will boot with zero issues. However I do recommend configuring both PC's with SATA AHCI enabled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_H ... _Interface

To add to the comments about the Saitek Yoke and rudder pedals. I have zero experience in a real plane so I'm not the best to respond. HOWEVER, this is were the MISSION of the sim needs to be clearly defined. If the goal is to familiarize the student with instrument flying and not primary flight training, then any short comings in the primary flight controls is not as important.

IF the goal is also PRIMARY flight training, then the accuracy of the controls takes on far more importance. From the opening post, it seems to me that primary flight training isn't the goal for these systems.

[wmburns]

Did anything become of this? I was able to update my Unbuntu Linux test system and verify PE operation.

EDIT: I see that a new version of the PE Linux plugin has been released. I'm planning on re-testing the new version over the long weekend. I see that one of the bug fixes is the crash caused by a long call sign.

EDIT2: updated Ubuntu with latest service packs as my system was several months behind. This caused an issues where the Nvidia drivers had to be removed and re-installed. Got to love Linux. Updated X-plane and the PE client. Tested ability to log on to PE (good). Performed radio check (OK).

[wmburns]

As a "proof of concept" I built a test Unbuntu Linux X-Plane PE test mule. The sim rig used some older hardware with the intent to gauge how well X-Plane would run on older hardware under Linux. I'm considering re-purposing the PC case for another project. However a fair amount of work went into creating this Linux test mule PC.

Note, the test did get very respectable frame rates in the 30-45 FPS. Very impressive for hardware that by today's standards is "long in the tooth". Even the video card is obsolete by today's standard. So if you have been told that it takes a "monster" PC to run X-Plane, here's proof that it doesn't have to. Image what it could do on a more up to date system!

If there's anyone out there that's interested in seeing what the combination of Linux/X-Plane/PE can do for you but didn't want to go to trouble of learning Linux here's your chance to get a "leg up". Using the hard drive out of my mule PC and your hardware (must have an Nvidia graphics card), should create a working Linux test system. Almost all of the work has been done for you. X-Plane and PE already loaded (will need your X-Plane DVD#1).

Note. The Linux operating system is not tied to the hardware like Windows is. In the vast majority of cases Linux will boot up without issue after a HD transplant.

If anyone is interested drop me a PM. I'm only looking to get a modest amount for the HD and shipping. Optionally if interested in the whole test mule PC I'm sure we could work something out.

[wmburns]

Update on X-Plane, PE, and Linux:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6089

In short, X-plane under Linux has gotten much better.

If the idea is to have MULTIPLE sims, IMO the better option is to use the DVD version of X-plane and then get a USB key for each additional sim.

However, there's the license issue when X-plane is used for a commercial purpose (as for a flight school).

For a flight school, best to use the professional version.
http://www.x-plane.com/store/pro-use/

If doing this for an "event" (like a LAN party for example), the DVD version with the $30 USB home key option likely is the best.
http://www.x-plane.com/store/desktop/x- ... e_usb_key/

In any case, using Linux instead of Windows could save the cost of the Windows license.