PilotEdge Forums

Note: there have been quite a few edits to this post. As of 7:15am PST on 1/3/14, I have incorporated *all* of the suggestions into the top post. We will keep the history below for learning purposes and for any ongoing discussions, but please refer to *this* post (at the top of the thread) for the latest details of the Fly Out. Thanks.

"Bring the Twins "

Skill level: IFR newbie

Hi folks,

I’m shifting some pax in my Baron 58 from Yuma to John Wayne this weekend and would really love some company. It will be an IFR flight that should last close to 2 hours, from pushback to landing.

The flight details...
(all times in PST, i.e. GMT-8 / EST-3):

DEPARTURE from YUMA (KNYL ...aka "KYUM" in default MSFS):
Saturday January 4th at 7:45pm (+/- 10 minutes for taxi/takeoff sequencing)

EST. ARRIVAL at JOHN WAYNE (KSNA):
Saturday January 4th at 9:45pm

THE ROUTE:

• File “BZA V458 OCN V23 SLI” at 10,000ft / 130 KIAS
• Skyvector.com link: http://tinyurl.com/oecn8fk
• I’m going to request the full ILS 19R approach for KSNA (i.e. from SLI), but feel free to do what you’re comfortable with or just take the approach that you’re given by ATC. I would imagine that somewhere between OCN and SLI, all bets for staying together are off anyway.

DETAILED SCHEDULE:
(the times represent relatively short windows - so please plan, brief and pre-flight accordingly; in my experience, the most enjoyable thing about Fly-Outs is when we stay together as a pack/convoy)

• I recommend that all those participating keep a window going with a PE chat session, and log on with your first name and callsign, e.g. "Cyrus_258E"
• Between 7:15pm and 7:30pm – Be on the ramp at any parking. Monitor Yuma CD on 118.0. File your flight plan on PilotEdge *NO LATER THAN* 7:30pm.
• Between 7:30pm and 7:40pm – Call CD and request your IFR clearance. Switch to Yuma Ground as soon as you’ve been confirmed by CD.
• Between 7:40pm and 7:45pm – Request taxi from Ground… and get going.
• Enroute - Once airborne, manage your speed to keep from getting too far ahead or too far behind (while following any required ATC instructions for separation, of course).

AIRCRAFT:
Any aircraft capable of cruising at 130 KIAS at 10,000ft (and, ideally, be able to burst a little faster in case you need to play catch up).

REQUIRED EQUIPMENT:
Slant Alpha (VOR + DME)

ALTITUDE TO FILE:
Please file 10,000 feet. If you can handle higher while enroute, make the request and go for it. If you need to request 8,000ft for performance reasons, not a problem either.

SPEED:
We'll aim for an "average convoy speed" of 130 KIAS. So, as a guideline for this fly-out, it would be great if the craft at the front of the pack does not exceed this speed, and then everyone else can speed up or slow down as necessary. (We can always discuss speeding it up in the chat session, if this turns out to be painfully slow for everyone). Also, if you fly at a different altitude, keep in mind that those at 10,000ft will be aiming for around 150 KTAS. Strong winds aloft, especially at different altitudes, may result in some planes going faster/slower than others. Again, if you're out in front, just keep the rest of the pack in mind.

Other useful links…

MYFLIGHTROUTE.COM:
http://www.myflightroute.com/craft.php? ... L&end=KSNA

KSNA ILS Rwy 19R Approach:
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1313/pdf/00377IL19R.PDF

I’m sorry if the date/time doesn’t work for you (but remember, you can always schedule your own Fly-Out on this forum, and I’m sure there will be others in your time zone or at the time you want to fly that will appreciate it).

I do hope to see as many of you as possible this Saturday at the Starbucks in the Yuma terminal, sometime around 7:15pm Pacific Time, and we can head out to the GA ramp together, hopefully feeling like this:



...although we will probably be looking something more like this :

)

Finally, if anything needs to be corrected here, please don't hesitate to chime in.

Cheers,
Cyrus

Hi Cyrus, Sounds like fun. Nice attention to detail for the flight plan, love the associated URLs. Will check with my wife to see if I can afford the fuel. I am on EST as well. If able I will be in Duke 820MH

Regards,
Pat Snyder

Be aware:

• KNYL is not in the FSX or P3D airport database -- instead use KYUM.
• The Imperial transition off of the CARGO8 departure procedure goes right through R-2512 which is active from surface to FL230. If the area is "hot", you may not get the CARGO8 (or may get it, but then vectored around R-2512).

I just flew a good portion of this route. Unless you're in some version of the Baron 58 that I'm unfamiliar with, you aren't going to acheive 160 KTAS at 12,000'. Heck, I gave up on even climbing to 12,000 feet -- I was down to about a 100 fpm climb rate at 100 KIAS as I crossed through 10,000'. I eventually just leveled off at 10,000 and was showing about 140 KTAS. I descended to 8,000 (just above the MEA on the leg to JLI) and was able to get 160 KTAS exactly (143 knots indicated). This was at 22.5 inches and 2000 RPM.

You might want to give this a test-flight yourself and perhaps adjust your flight planning a bit.

-M.

Mark,
Baron models in the 58 series minimum service ceiling is 18000 feet. TC and P models are 30000 and 25000 feet respectively. Is this the MSFS default B58? I would test your mixture controls for proper leaning esp. passing 12000. Realair Duke service ceiling is 30000 feet on two 380 hp engines. single engine climb ceiling is 15000. I am assuming I fly the post 1978 version. The aircraft fidelity is very good. Thanks for the FSX KNYL headsup, Will check into this in my scenery.

Regards, Pat Snyder

Cyrus,
Have to agree with Mark. KNYL does not exist in my FSX list, although it does show in my AS2012 search showing next to KYUM. Skyvector does not show KYUM. Not familiar with the area, so I'm thinking this was a base closure victim and now joint use airport as KNYL? There is an updated AFCAD in the AVSIM Library for KYUM.


Thanks,
Pat Snyder

Pat,
Yes, I checked and "KNYL" does not exist in FSX. Given the release timing of FSX, this explains why. I think all that Mark was saying here is, don't punch up "KNYL" in FSX because it won't be there. Instead, use the old name (KYUM). But we're only talking about locating yourself at the field (or if you create a flight plan for FSX). As for everything else (the flight plan on PE, checking the route on Skyvector, talking about it here, etc.) then obviously KNYL is what will be needed, since that's what it is called now.

Mark,
Thanks for the responses. I'm rethinking the route/altitude/speed right now (taking your feedback into account). Will reply soon with updated proposal.

Cheers... and Happy New Year to you all.

- Cyrus

About R-2512:
R-2512 looks like it is in effect from 8:00am to 1:00am PST (17 hrs/day). In other words, this *would* ordinarily be a factor for the proposed route. However, since MOA's aren't officially controlled by PE (at least, according to this; half way down, Peter Grey's #2 bullet point / and I'm assuming the same applies to "Special Use Airspace" as it does for MOAs), I suggest that we request the CARGO8 and see what happens.... and whatever does happen, at least we will all be in the same/similar situation. I agree that this might detract a little for those looking for a "as real as it gets" experience, especially if you might ordinarily have planned and requested your own routing out of Yuma to avoid the MOA. But since the goal is to have a fun fly-out by having as many pilots as possible from as many skill levels as possible and not necessarily to impose all real-world flying rules on ourselves (especially not the ones that aren't managed by PE), then I can live with this potential faux pas. Having said that, I'm absolutely fine if we get vectored around it - I just don't see it happening given PE's stated position. Alternatively, we could all ask to be vectored around it, but I wonder how ATC would feel if they have to manage that for several pilots at once... depends on how many join the fly-out, I suppose.

The CARGO SID:
The only other viable SID (given the direction flight) would be the ARGUS3. However, I was informed that PE is not currently using this Departure at NYL, per an internal SOP. That's why I chose the CARGO. For me, the takeaway from this discussion is that we should always be flexible enough to take what we're given and adjust the route at the last moment where necessary.

Aircraft Performance/Speed/Altitude:
Mark, thanks for raising this. To be honest, I had not even considered it until you mentioned it . I was previously only concerned about speed so that (1) we weren't all flying at max speed (no fun for people at the back) and (2) not very realistic from an operating model/fuel management perspective. Anyway, I've had a good look at the route and also did a quick test flight out of Yuma, pretty much following the CARGO.IPL Departure. While my climb rate did shrink to around 500fpm after 8000/10,000ft, I was able to *just about* achieve 160kts TAS at 12,000ft in the FSX default BE58. However, this was really pushing it. So, given the fact that we DON'T want to push near to max speed, I propose changing the enroute speed to 140kts TAS (adds about 15 mins to the flight) and fly it at 10,000ft. If anyone think this will still be an issue, let's discuss the pros/cons of 8,000ft.

I'll update the text above (in the original post) shortly.

Thanks again for the feedback. Hope you can both join... and others too!

Cyrus,
Will test fly in my RealAir Duke, but no issues at 14000 in the past 10K will also work. RA Duke trues out at 180 at 12K.

Pat

Heavyflyer767 wrote:Cyrus,
Will test fly in my RealAir Duke, but no issues at 14000 in the past 10K will also work. RA Duke trues out at 180 at 12K.
Pat

Sounds good. But I think the Duke is turbocharged, whereas the default FSX Baron is normally aspirated (which would account for the difference in performance that Mark alludes to). Maybe you can lead the pack in your Duke... be our pacemaker

Anyway, I have updated the text in the original post and the subject line (can't update subject of other posters). Heck, at 140kts TAS we might even get a Cessna 182RG or similar joining the pack.

Looking forward to it. Thanks again for the healthy discussion.