Expect XXXX in XX ?

[Jari Junior]

sorry for my bad english

Hi. I've been flying online since the first month of the other networks and there they never used the "climb xxxx, expect xx in xx". Now i'm just flying on PE so i'm pretty ok with that. But let me ask, why this is used almost every time? Almost 90% of my departures (regardless the traffic) I get a "expect" message. I also watched a twitch stream with a real 738 cpt (Pilot_H @ Twitch) and the stream was about ATC Phraseology. i asked about the "expect" and he said he never saw that before, real atcs don't use that. I know PE is almost as real as it gets and the professionalism is pretty high. I just want a little clarification about the expect thing, thanks in advance.

[Keith Smith]

Here's some real world IFR clearances using this phraseology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghkY1PPGnhM (Lancair departing ATL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKIEc4vH_vo (Lancair ABE to N07, clearance at 1:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S_LPEAGrIg (Lancair OWD to ASH, 2 clearances in a row, one for me then one for a DA-40 also going to Nashua)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCp1xx3lAXE (Lancair N07 to ASH, he forgets to give the final altitude, but issues it upon request)

If you're assigned a SID, the SID may contain instruction to 'expect filed altitude or flight level x minutes after departure' in which case ATC doesn't have to include it in the clearance.

The statement of 'real world ATCs don't use it' is incorrect. Perhaps it's not used much in Europe.

[Jari Junior]

The statement of 'real world ATCs don't use it' is incorrect. Perhaps it's not used much in Europe.

Thanks Keith. I also asked about the ground point this, ground point that.. he said this is way incorrect and ATC should not use that. They do the things way different in Europe, perhaps?

[Kyle.Sanders]

Edit; I see that Keith has already beat me to the punch... but I spent some time writing this all out. If he doesnt mind, I am going to keep this here.


Real world pilots fly (usually), the same routes over and over again so their experiences may or may not differ very much. Additionally, they may have only got clearances that include a fully detailed SID (more to come on that).

The word “Expect” in the aviation world has two different meanings:

1) What to literally “Expect” to happen sometime in the near future.

2) In case you loose communications, what ATC expects you to do if able.

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Examples:

APPROACHES
When ATC says “Expect vectors ILS Runway 20R approach”…
—You can expect that to happen in the near future but if you loose communication, ATC are going to think you are likely going to go to the IAF as soon as possible and shoot the approach.
(side note- there is debate about if you should go to the airport prior to going to the IAF but we won’t cover that here)

CLEARANCES
In a clearance on the ground, you may have ATC say something like “Cleared to KCRQ airport, on departure fly heading 220, “EXPECT” radar vectors to V23.OCN and then direct. Maintain 2,000. “EXPECT” 5,000 10min after departure. Departure frequency ###.##. Squawk ####.”
— The first “Expect” means you can expect to be vectored to V23 by radar. It also means that in case of lost communications, and once you are able (above MEA are receiving required nav signals), you can navigate on your own there and resume your cleared route.
—The second “Expect” means that you need to climb to 2,000ft and stay there until either ATC clears you up higher. It also means that if you loose communications after departure and have not been cleared higher, you remain at 2,000ft until the time limit that was given… in this case it was 10min after departure. (always start your timer on takeoff roll just incase haha)

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Why don’t I hear this in real world a lot?

Well, the aviation system is all about efficiency. If they can do the same thing with less words, they are going to. i am sure you have heard of Standard Instrument Departures (SID). When you have been cleared to fly one, you are expected to read all material associated with that departure chart and are expected to comply with it unless there is an “Except” statement in the clearance (that will be covered later).

In the departure chart (SID), you will have a part called the narrative. Sometimes the narrative is on the second page. Lets take a look at the KSNA IRVINE 4 SID
Page 1

IRVINE4 SID PAGE 1.pdf

(291.95 KiB) Downloaded 261 times

Page 2

IRVINE4 SID.pdf

(192.72 KiB) Downloaded 271 times

A clearance with this SID is likely sound like this: “Cleared to ___ Airport. IRVINE FOUR departure. Daggett transition. Then as filed. Maintain 5,000. Squawk 1234.”
(notice how much shorter that is compared to the other clearance we talked about?)

On the first page of the narrative, it tells you the “Departure Control Frequency”
— This means that it does not need to be given in the clearance unless it will be difference from what the chart says.

In the narrative it says to “Expect filed altitude ten minuets after departure.”
— This means that this does not need to be included in the clearance by the controller. You maintain the 5,000 that was issued and then expect cruise altitude 10min after departure.

(Note- there are times when no altitude will be issued and will just be “Climb via SID”. That means that ALL altitude information will be included in the narrative part of the SID and you are to comply with that. Example would be the KLAS BOACH 6 SID

BOACH 6 SID Page 2.pdf

(445.83 KiB) Downloaded 250 times

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“Except” clearances

At times, ATC want you to fly the SID as published but with exceptions. This can vary a lot and we won’t get into all of them but we will go over the most commonly issued:

1) Initial altitude. An example of this would be the before mentioned KLAS BOACH 6 SID
If the clearances sounded like this; “Cleared to ___ Airport. BOACH 6 Departure. Hector transition. Then as filed. Climb Via SID except maintain 7,000. Squawk ####”
—This means that you are to climb as the SID tells you until you reach 7,000ft. Level off there and disregard all other altitude information on there chart.

2) Departure frequency.
On the KLAX POM9 departure, the departure frequency might be listed as 125.5 but the controller might override that by issuing a another departure frequency in the clearance.

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There is more to all of this and thankfully, PE provides some workshops on this type of stuff. Some of them are free. I suggest checking all of them out in the Pilot Center of the pilotedge.net main page.

[Kyle.Sanders]

The statement of 'real world ATCs don't use it' is incorrect. Perhaps it's not used much in Europe.

Thanks Keith. I also asked about the ground point this, ground point that.. he said this is way incorrect and ATC should not use that. They do the things way different in Europe, perhaps?

Straight from the AIM (USA only):

Screen Shot 2016-06-20 at 9.11.11 AM.png (72.77 KiB) Viewed 6463 times

[Jari Junior]

what a nice piece of information here... thank you a lot Keith and Kyle for your effords to explain everything. Thank you so much.

[Kyle.Sanders]

what a nice piece of information here... thank you a lot Keith and Kyle for your effords to explain everything. Thank you so much.

No problem! Welcome to PilotEdge!

[Keith Smith]

Jari,

I can only assume your friend flies somewhere other than the USA. He/she may not be well qualified to provide you with guidance on these topics.